Season 2, EP 1:
Jennifer Smith on How to Market as A Photographer

Justin: Welcome to After the Shoot, a podcast where we take a peek behind the lens to get inspired by the stories, challenges, and ideas of some of the most successful photographers in the business. I’m Justin Benson from After Shoot and AI cuing and editing software that helps give photographers like you your time back so you can focus on what you do best.

While our magical unicorns take care of the most boring and time consuming parts. Of your job. I’ll be your host for this podcast, and I’m so excited to have you here. As we talk with some of my favorite creators, 

Jennifer Bruna: my business is failing. What is the secret I like there? The secret is hard work. Nobody should be running Facebook ads unless you have a Facebook pixel on your website.

I find something that works and then I repackage it and do it. You can’t change a million things about your business and then be like, oh, it worked. You don’t know what worked.

Justin: I am so excited to be sitting with the [00:01:00] incredibly talented, amazing human being. Thank you, responsible for something absolutely incredible, and that is your High Rollers Club, your masterminds, all of the different things that you have going on. A true marketing genius. That I think is going to give you a lot of great insights.

So without further ado, the incredible Jen Bruno Smith. 

Jennifer Bruna: Thank you. That was quite an intro. Thank you. 

Justin: It’s a mouthful. I mean, but it’s worth it. I Hey, I’ll 

Jennifer Bruna: take it. I’ll take it. That’s great. 

Justin: You’ve earned it. That’s the thing. You’ve earned it. Um, I absolutely love all the things you do. So I’m in, in the high Rollers club and, and I just love all of the energy and effort you put out there into the world.

So, yeah, I appreciate that. Um, and I know that the listeners are gonna get. So much out of this, but I have to start with my typical question. Sure, yeah, yeah, of course. How did you get into photography? 

Jennifer Bruna: It’s such a good question. I mean, I grew up with photography. My dad was a photographer, he was a wedding photographer.

Um, he actually won, um, wedding photographer of the year. At the equivalent of [00:02:00] WPPI in 1983. Um, and I, I have like the original newspaper clipping. Um, and so I grew up going to weddings and, um, my dad actually on his weekends, ’cause my parents were divorced, he would take me and now I can’t imagine letting my 8-year-old on the balcony of a church with a shutter release.

But it was a different time then. And he would tug his ear from the, you know, he would be up where the bride and groom, he would tug his ear and when he did, I would, I would click the shutter from, so I was second shooting at weddings when I was eight. Um, yeah, so that’s where we started. And then there was a break and I also grew up with like a dark room in my house.

So developing film, um, which looking back is probably not the best. Thing to be breathing when you’re a child again. You turned out 

Justin: fine. I’m not. Yeah, you turned out fine. I’m not. Yeah, 

Jennifer Bruna: yeah, yeah. Um, but yeah, so then it took a long break and then in, um, 2009, my husband got a new job and he was really busy and I needed a hobby and he bought me a camera and it, I just poured [00:03:00] myself into it and I shot family, maternity, newborn for four or five years.

And then in 2016, I discovered boudoir. And it was just, you know, I felt like I found my calling and that’s basically what it was. And again, I just poured myself into it and you know, just built and continued to build and I. It’s incredible, the community that we have. So 

Justin: Yeah, no, your, your community is definitely one to brag about.

Thank you. Um, well that’s like the, that’s probably the, the most interesting journey. Do you still shoot film at all? ’cause you, you know, 

Jennifer Bruna: I don’t, I don’t, I don’t, um, you know, with small kids, number one, I don’t want the chemicals in the house. Um, but no, I don’t. I’ve thought about it. The thought has crossed my mind many times.

It’s fun. It is fun and developing it is, is fun too. I had, I have a lot of really fond memories of my dad, like teaching me when I was younger and, [00:04:00] you know, going into the dark room, 

Justin: so That’s awesome. Yeah. Uh, that, that’s such a, a special moment that Yeah. You’ll remember for forever. So for, for sure. Uh, that’s really cool.

I want to talk about boudoir now just a little bit. So you, you found your true calling in 2016 with boudoir photography. Um, you, you kind of discovered it. How did that process go? So as like somebody who is a family newborn, maternity style photography. Right. How did you like, ’cause it’s almost like a 180.

Yeah. Right? Like you kind of went from like after wedding to before wedding did. 

Jennifer Bruna: Yeah, for sure. Um, so I was doing headshot for the Miss American, miss US Con USA Con contestants in Delaware. And one of them that I had shot several times was like, Hey, I wanna do some like sexy pictures for my boyfriend.

Can you do that for me? And I was like, yeah, sure, let’s try it. I’d never done it before, but I did it. And I loved it. And then she started telling her friends. Then her friends hired me, and then it just continued on. And then I really realized that I was [00:05:00] onto something and I was good at it, and I was passionate about it.

Um, and then it was just like, it was like an avalanche. It just, it happened really, really quick, the trajectory, my business, because at the same time I was building the community of my studio. I was really figuring out pricing and business at the same time, and I just kind of. Was, I come from a scientific background.

I have a master’s of science, so it was very, um, it was an easy transition for me to try variables and manipulate them and see what works and analyze, and I used that as I was building my business. And now I continue to use that as I teach my students and photographers how to build their businesses. 

Justin: And that’s, I think that’s what’s most exciting to me about your process is that so many of us, when we talk to other people in the industry, other photographers about marketing.

Yeah. You don’t get that like ab tested variables. Yeah. Like, and, and for you, you’ve literally, you’ve got it down to such a science. Yes. [00:06:00] We just had a conversation a few minutes ago about like Bills just in general. Yeah. Like you, like you, you’re retouching Bill. Yeah. Used to be like $65,000 a year. Yeah.

Which means that you have to make a lot of money. Yeah. Now I know the High Rollers Club is all about high rolling For sure. So how do you scale a business and how did, like marketing wise, what is like a, um, a path to take? So did you walk in and say, okay, I am gonna. I’m gonna take this strategy and I’m gonna use it and then try the variables and see what works or, yeah.

Yeah. Or did you just kind of say like, let me, let me feel it out. Yeah. How do you market For 

Jennifer Bruna: sure. So, especially now, because the economy is, is really hard. If, if anybody tells you that it, it’s not, I would. Really love to sit down and talk with them, but it is, the economy’s harder. So now what I’m doing is I find something that works and then I repackage it and do it.

So for an example, um, this year I did a Spring Siren giveaway that we teach in Mastermind and I [00:07:00] booked 130 sessions from it. As far as attrition, I’ve had about 30 fall off. I’ll probably continue to have about maybe 20 more fall off, but even if I book 80 and my sales average is. 4,000, which is low. It’s more like 5,500.

But even at, even at 3000, say a hundred stay, that’s 300,000 of revenue into my studio. So anyway, what I did is I took that spring siren and now I am doing a 40, over 40, a fierce sober 40, I call it. But I’m using the same pattern of marketing for that new funnel because I figured out what worked with the first one.

So, and it’s not. Dissimilar. I didn’t, I didn’t create this. This is something that you see everywhere. So for instance, if you look at, you know, Shutterfly, right? I create like vacation books for my family on Shutterfly and you know, you look in May and they have like a 30% off Mother’s day sale, and then you look in June and it’s a beach sale, 30% off.

You look in July, same thing. They figured out what worked and they repackage it. They wrap it up in different paper. So that’s what we need to do as photographers. You [00:08:00] figure out. Something that works for your market. And then you don’t have to reinvent the wheel. You don’t have to change it all. You just wrap it up in different paper because now, don’t get me wrong, there’s gonna be a point where the paper and the product need to change.

But at least for a little bit, you can kind of ride that wave of, I found something that works. Let’s repackage it into something else. You know what I mean? So especially now, I feel like it’s really, really important to identify something that’s working for you. And then once you figure that out, don’t reinvent the wheel again.

Just keep going with it until you can’t go with it anymore and you have to create something else. 

Justin: Yeah. Do you, um, that, I mean, I love that analogy of like repackaging it re you know, new, it’s the new wrapping paper. I, it’s a re 

Jennifer Bruna: what is it? Re-gifting, like the bread box. That’s what it’s, it’s a photography bread box.

You just rewrap it, the paper. 

Justin: And I, and, and that’s such a great way to look at it. ’cause I think it’s so easy to get caught up in whatever somebody else is doing. For sure. Or like, you see Instagram, somebody’s like crushing it on [00:09:00] reels if you didn’t have success on reels. Yeah. Do you need to go do it or can you just repackage what actually works?

Like you were booking clients before. Yeah. And not doing reels isn’t preventing you from booking new ones. So, uh, figuring out what the thing that works is and taking it further is great. How do you determine when something doesn’t work? Like what’s the. What’s the analogy or the point where you’re like, okay, I tried something and it’s not really successful, or how do you determine that it’s fading?

Jennifer Bruna: Yeah, so I look at metrics. I keep metrics for everything. How many shoots we booked. Um, the price point I booked them at, if they canceled, when they canceled, if they paid in full, if they didn’t, what their, what their sale was, what my cost of goods was. Like, I, I keep track of it all. So I will, you know.

Continuously look back at that and reanalyze and you know, try to see like what is working, what isn’t. And just like if you’re doing a scientific experiment, if you’re trying to figure something out and you [00:10:00] change 10 variables and then you get a positive change, you’re not gonna know what actually made the difference.

So as I teach this too, like you really, if you’re changing something, you should change one thing, see if it makes a difference, and then. If it doesn’t, then you try something new. Like you can’t change a million things about your business and then be like, oh, it worked. You don’t know what worked. You have to, you have to narrow it down.

You have to, you know, kind of eliminate the, the choices of things you’re changing. So I try to keep that in mind. I try to tell my students that too. ’cause they’ll come in and then they’ll wanna change 500 things. Like, well, how are you gonna know what works? You have to kind of control the amount of things that you’re.

That you’re changing 

Justin: and every business is different for sure. So, so like that marketing advice. So you could, you could literally hand your siren program Yeah. Over to somebody. Yeah. And if they copy it to the t Yeah. They won’t book 130 sessions. 

Jennifer Bruna: They might not, because it’s different like. In addition to my, you know, which we do teach in the Mastermind and my students are having [00:11:00] success, but also a lot of those students have already been doing Mastermind, have their website done, have retargeting, have their ads figured out, have their automations figured out, their email, their texting automations.

They’re using a CRM like Meet Nikki, which is a higher level CRM that. Does all the things for you. So they have all these pieces in place. If you just find a photographer that walks in off the street and picks up this giveaway, it might not work because they might not know how to talk to clients. They might not know how to close ’em.

They might not have an email automation or text automation. So there’s all these other pieces to the puzzle, um, that need to be in place to see the big picture. 

Justin: There’s no one strategy or piece that’s going to change a business. 

Jennifer Bruna: There’s no magic bullet, and I talk with a lot of photographers and I’ll be like, my business is failing.

What is the secret? I’ll be like there? The secret is hard work, like the secret is working. A lot and listening to other people who have done it before and not just trying to like reinvent the wheel over and over again because again, nothing is new. [00:12:00] Mm-hmm. You know, like people, I did not invent Facebook ads.

I did not invent giveaways. I did not, you know, they’ve been doing, I, I learned about it at Penn State in 2001. You know what I mean? This is not new stuff. Yeah. This is just, this is just molding it for the industry that we’re in. 

Justin: So. Your recommendation. I, I’m just assuming that your recommendation would not be like, put your eggs in a basket and run with it.

You’re, you’re like, I heard you say Facebook ads and a giveaway and this and that. Yeah. So you’ve got a lot of things. Yeah. 

Jennifer Bruna: You should have like 12 different baskets. Um, yeah, you have lots of baskets and lots of eggs. If you are putting all your eggs in one basket, you are really risking the success of your business because it’s all the things, like, I still do reels, you know, but I go to bridal shows, I go to trade shows.

I’m doing all the things. I network with local businesses. There’s so many things, marketing things that you can do. Um, you can’t just depend on one thing. 

Justin: Yeah. Yeah. And that’s, I mean, and that’s [00:13:00] like a. A fail safe, I guess, or a, because if one thing you know fails, 

Jennifer Bruna: if 

Justin: Facebook ads changes tomorrow, which they do all the 

Jennifer Bruna: time.

Justin: My business, I, I did a lot of Facebook ads probably back in 20 15, 20 16. Right. I had great success 2017. Great success 2018. Great success 2019. Great success. 2020. Yeah. Something changed. Yeah. And I, at that point, I was so busy I didn’t need it. Right. So I just, I said, okay, it changed. But if my business was relying on Facebook ads, yeah.

I would immediately have been in a lot of pain. Yeah. So having all of these different avenues. Available to you for sure is, is big 

Jennifer Bruna: and keeping up with what’s actually happening. So like Google ads in, uh, I don’t know when it was, but recently they changed everything they were doing and my website became highly restricted.

And because I was really paying attention, I realized quickly that I wasn’t getting any leads. My metrics had changed. Um, so we had to create a whole new URL, a whole new landing page that’s like [00:14:00] super G-rated that looks like, you know. Head shots, nothing gets head shots, but it’s not what I do. Um, and I’m still like moderately restricted, but at least people are seeing my stuff.

So you have to really stay on top of what’s going on, um, you know, with all the things. Yeah. So you don’t lose money. You don’t lose time 

Justin: now. If I were a photographer, which I am. Yeah. You know, I’m a wedding photographer. Right, right. So would something like the High Rollers Club be applicable to me? Yeah, for sure.

Like, because you could, I, I just listening to the things that you’re bringing up and I’m like, wow. I never, I don’t think I ever ran Google ads as a photographer. Yeah. As a wedding photographer. 

Jennifer Bruna: Yeah, you should. 

Justin: Yeah. 

Jennifer Bruna: Um. Yeah, for sure. Now there is like a specific like shooting to sell for boudoir photographers, but IPSI teach IPS to in-person sales, to all genres of photography.

Um, the funnels, you know, even though like the spring siren [00:15:00] has copy that is probably more suited to boudoir, you tweak a few words. And then you could have engagement sessions or something else. So, so there is, and you should never just copy something completely. Yeah. Because it has to be true to your brand and true to like who you are as a business.

And because that, that authenticity speaks to people and they can tell, um, you know, that voice that you’re speaking and they can tell and it calls to people. Right. Um. But yeah. And we do have photographers of all genres that take mastermind pet photographers. A, a equine. A equine is always a equine Yeah.

A equine photographers dance, fitness, weddings. I mean, we’ve had, 

Justin: it sounds, it sounds like the, the kind of, the kind of thing that so many of us need to market. Yeah. Right. Because I think photographers are really good at maybe making a friend. 

Jennifer Bruna: Yeah, for sure. 

Justin: Really good at taking photos, but a lot of times AB testing isn’t on the [00:16:00] top of your mind.

Tweaking isn’t, you know, all the advertisements and different like routes that you can take. Right. They’re not on top of mind for sure. Uh, and so having this kind of, you know. It’s all encompassing packet. 

Jennifer Bruna: Right? 

Justin: Right. This is, you are going to help business in a box. Yeah. It’s, it’s helping people figure out those things for sure.

And really applying them to their business. 

Jennifer Bruna: Yeah. And we really teach creatives how to be business people because it doesn’t come naturally to a lot of creatives, is what I’ve found. And you know, there are. So many people that are so much more talented than I am, and they just can’t get a foothold on business and their business fails because running a photography studio is 90% running a business and 10% taking pictures.

You have to do all the things. You can’t take your foot off the gas for marketing. And if you do, you’re gonna start to see results or lack of results six months down the road. Because the marketing efforts you do today, um, are the leads. Six months down the road. ’cause we have a lot of people, they’re like, oh, I’m booked.

And they stop their [00:17:00] ads and they’re like six months down the road they’re really hurting. I’m like, it’s because you stopped. Like you have to continue. Um, you can’t take your foot off the gas. Especially now, especially in this economy, you have to keep pushing. 

Justin: Yeah, absolutely. Do you, I, so for those, those other styles, other genres of photographers, do you expect, like, what would you say would be the bar of success?

You mentioned like you have these, you have a pretty steady, consistent leads, so you knew that something was off. 

Jennifer Bruna: Right, right. In 

Justin: your leads because they dropped. Yeah. It’s like, as a wedding photographer, would I expect by doing like a course like this, could I expect that like consistently I won’t see major fluctuations in my leads.

Mm-hmm. And I would be able to kind of, I mean, obviously there’s seasonal stuff happening. Yeah. Right, right, 

Jennifer Bruna: right. Um, that’s a hard question. I like to tell everyone that. It’s really hard for me to predict results for anybody. Um, and you should be wary of an educator that says, if you take my course, you will succeed, because that’s not the way it is.

Because you know [00:18:00] someone’s, you know, my a hundred percent might be somebody else. Or like, I guess my 50% effort might be somebody else’s a hundred percent effort, you know, because of like variables like. Their living situation or if they have small children or if they’re pregnant, or if their husband is sick or partner, right?

So everybody has different situations. So I can’t ever predict like how, but I can tell you that the trajectory of success is much steeper and faster if you’re ready to hustle, if you’re open to the change and if you actually have good work to start with. Um, and also being open to criticism, constructive criticism is really important because a lot of times, you know, I’ll look at portfolios and people will be like, my work is really good.

And I’ll be like, Ooh. 

Justin: I hope they cut to a closeup of your face going, oh, for this, because that face, yeah. 

Jennifer Bruna: Yeah. And, but being open to constructive criticism really opens doors. You know, you have to be willing and, and it’s [00:19:00] hard to hear, but sometimes being open and willing to not just criticism about your work, but about the way you’re running your business can really make the difference and change your life.

You know, you just have to be open to it. And that’s, that’s hard. It’s hard to get that thick skin. As an educators, our skin is real thick. You know, there’s nothing more 

Justin: painful than hearing, uh. Like that your big beautiful concept that you created stinks when you’re like, oh, I got this marketing idea, I’m gonna like run this session special.

No. And then it’s like, I wouldn’t pay for that. Yeah. But if people won’t pay for it, if people, if your work or your marketing tactics or whatever aren’t working with your colleagues Yeah. Who are essentially your clients Right. Then obviously it’s, it’s really important to look inward for sure. Because you can only improve if you know that.

Someone’s not willing to pay for it. That is 

Jennifer Bruna: right. Your 

Justin: ideal client then, right? Who else is gonna pay, not wanna pay for it. 

Jennifer Bruna: Right. It’s true. And I think like listening to [00:20:00] that, being open to that feedback is a really important part of growth. 

Justin: Absolutely. So if I were to take one nugget of information away from you, what’s like one thing that you would recommend.

For somebody who’s ready to start marketing. Yeah. Before I go throw $500 away on Facebook ads. Oh yeah. Don’t do that. Or Google ads or don’t do that. What would you say is the, the one thing that photographers should look at before they get started? Anywhere for marketing? 

Jennifer Bruna: Yeah. So don’t throw a penny towards Facebook or Google Ads until your website is done.

Your email automation, you have an email automation that. Fault that people can go into because people, it’s really hard to book cold leads. If someone finds you on the internet, it’s very rare that they’re just gonna be like, I’m gonna call this person and book them. Um, usually it’s the email automation that draws them in because people hire you when they know you, like you and trust you.

And if they don’t know you, like you and trust you, then it’s very difficult for someone [00:21:00] to take the leap, um, and just book you, uh, unless they’re really ready to pull the trigger and make a purchase. So, you know, having that email automation in place is really, really important. And, um, having a popup on your website, having a website that makes sense.

Having a Facebook pixel on your website. No one should be running Facebook ad. Nobody should be running Facebook ads unless you have a Facebook pixel on your website. If you take anything else away from. Take that, um, because you need to be able to run retargeting ads and, um, because it’s not just that one Facebook ad that’s going to grab people, it’s gonna be the retargeting and, um, you need to have the Facebook pixel on there for that.

So, and it’s super easy to install. It’s not something like crazy difficult, but it’s, you’d be surprised. I mean, I’ve heard of, you know, lots of people that I’ve talked with, lots of people that have never heard of it. For, but I’m just throwing money at Facebook and I’m like, whatcha doing? No, it’s 

Justin: not, that’s not the way.

Stop it. That’s not the way. Yeah. Yeah. Um, do you cover like that sort of stuff in so you can like how to install [00:22:00] it and, and that’s, it’s 

Jennifer Bruna: like a five minute video. It’s super easy. It’s like the easiest thing you can do to really, you know, that’s start. 

Justin: That’s amazing. So my takeaway from this is that if you’re trying to grow your business, if you’re trying to scale, if you’re trying to get more into marketing.

It’s time to call Jen Bruno Smith and get on the high rollers, um, or masterminds. We’d to have you. Yeah. Yeah. So you have a couple programs 

Jennifer Bruna: We do. Yeah, we do. 

Justin: Which one should people be going to to get this information? 

Jennifer Bruna: So Mastermind is our business in a box. It’s everything. Um, we do offer payment plans as well.

Um, and then I also offer the collective, which is like a high touch mentoring group and kind of like a stop gap between people who might not be ready yet for Mastermind, but to kind of get them on the right track. Um, and we also do workshops. So I have a workshop coming up, uh, at w uh, it’s right be it’s before WPPI in Vegas.

Um, and it’s gonna be an epic shootout in an incredible location. [00:23:00] And you guys will we sponsor it too? Yeah. Um, so we’re super excited for that. Um, and we have several sponsor floor color. We sponsoring, um, several lighting company cheetah stands. So we’re really excited, uh, to offer the workshop as well.

It’s gonna be killer. The location is. Phenomenal. Yes, absolutely. Like to die for. To die for. 

Justin: It’s, it’s so worth it. But that’s, it’s 

Jennifer Bruna: so pretty. 

Justin: That’s awesome because I, I think that for me, there’s no, there’s no great place to go for. I get Facebook or Instagram ads all the time of like, I’m gonna make you a million dollars.

And then I’m like, yeah, you’re not even, you’re not making a million dollars. How am I gonna make a million dollars if you can’t? Right. Absolutely. Um, so you’re a trusted resource and I’m, like I said, I’m in the groups, so I see the true life success stories all the time. Like it’s just constantly. And that’s why I was so excited to have you on because I think that if you are looking to go market.

Just from what I heard in this brief podcast Yeah. I’ve [00:24:00] learned enough to be like, okay, my marketing plan sucks. It’s time to change how I market. Yeah. Uh, and and you’ve clearly mastered it. Yeah. And being somebody who has that scientific background, you haven’t just pulled it out of thin air. You’ve done it through trial and error, and you have a little bit more information.

For sure. Uh, so everybody, thank you so much for tuning in The Incredible Jen Brew Smith. Drop knowledge on us marketing knowledge that I know that you can take a little snippet of, but I definitely recommend, thank you taking and jumping onto the mastermind course because that will change how you do it.

Jennifer Bruna: Yeah, yeah. That’s, it’s definitely changed the lives of, I’m so proud of it. Like the, the lives that we’ve changed and the opportunities that we’ve given. Um, you know, we, I touch lives all the time with boudoir, shooting and empowering my clients, but empowering photographers is something that I’m really proud of.

So. 

Justin: Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for tuning in. Thank you. Be sure to join us on the next episode of After the Shoot. [00:25:00] That’s marketing knowledge that I know that you can take a little snippet of. But I definitely recommend thank you taking and jumping onto the mastermind course because that will change how you do it.

Jennifer Bruna: Thank you. Yeah, that’s, it’s definitely changed the lives of, I’m so proud of it. Like the, the lives that we’ve changed and the opportunities that we’ve given. Um, you know, we, I touch lives all the time with. Boudoir shooting and empowering my clients, but empowering photographers is something that I’m really proud of, so, 

Justin: absolutely.

Well, thank you so much for tuning in. Thank you. Be sure to join us on the next episode of After the Shoot. Thanks for tuning into after the shoot. Got any burning questions for today’s guest, or just wanna keep the conversation going? Drop us a comment if you’re on YouTube or. Join the after shoot community to share your thoughts.

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